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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Puppetry Guidelines Tue 10 Jul 2012, 9:28 am

So, I was going through the puppetry information and I realized something. While the rules DO state that the max someone will be allowed to control at once is 10 puppets, on on each finger...there are no guidelines for how the rper will increase their ability to control multiple puppets at once.

Logically even though Genin are allowed to have 4 puppets at the start they would only be skilled enough to control one at a time using all 10 fingers. There needs to be some kind of progressive system where they increase their skill and decrease the number of fingers required to control a puppet.

I'm suggesting it be linked to a Puppet mastery SC that goes from 10 fingers to control a puppet, to 5 fingers, to 3, to 2, then to 1. So you progress from 1 puppet to 2 to 3 to 5 to 10.

That last one is a bit to big of a gap but I didn't think going into decimals would have been practical lol
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Rookie
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 12:43 am

Well I would also think it the rank of the puppet also matters. Maybe we should even worry about size, but the rank of the puppet should also be kept in mind.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 1:19 pm

Interestingly enough the site rules are really to blame.

You cannot use more than one jutsu at a time.
You can only use one set of chakra threads at a time (let's assume this generates 10 threads)

Starting off being able to only control 1 puppet is ludicrous in terms of balance (especially forcing people to grab an SC or get screwed for picking puppetry, an already limited specialty due to the inability to use jutsu while holding your threads. This means no Kankuro puppet switch we saw in the chuunin exams. So no jutsu even if they require no hand signs.

If anything relate it to rank:

Genin can control 2 At a time
Exp genin can control 4
Chuunin get 5
Exp chuunin get 7
Jounin get 9
Exp Jounin get 10

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~Fox~
Nukenin
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:02 pm

The Puppetry System wrote:
1. No puppeteer may use a puppet that is above them in rank. This means that:

Genin - Up to C Rank
- 4 Total Puppets
- 1 C ranked
Experienced Genin - Up to C Rank
- 5 Total Puppets
- 2 C ranked
Chuunin - Up to B Rank
- 6 Total Puppets
- 1 B ranked
- 2 C ranked
Experienced Chuunin - Up to B Rank
- 7 Total Puppets
- 2 B ranked
- 2 C ranked
Jounin - Up to A Rank
- 8 Total Puppets
- 1 A ranked
- 3 B ranked
- 3 C ranked
Experienced Jounin - Up to S Rank
- 10 Total Puppets
- 1 S ranked
- 2 A ranked
- 3 B ranked
- 4 C ranked
Kage - Up to S Rank
- 12 Total Puppets
- 2 S ranked
- 4 A ranked
- 5 B ranked
- 6 C ranked

2. All puppets require a constant stream of chakra to use. Chakra strings are required by default to manipulate puppets so DO NOT make a puppet that does not require them.

3. Using a puppet's weapons does not require chakra. Unless the weaponry is chakra based, the only cost associated with a puppet is the initial using of Kugutsu no Jutsu and the maintaining of chakra strings.

6. Human puppets require Staff approval and must be made from a real ninja, not an NPC or someone mentioned in your history. You must also either have the body in your possession (intact, rotting corpses do not make good puppets and you will not be able to use that body's abilities) or have a human puppet given to you in RP by someone who has a human puppet.

7. No puppeteer may use more than ten puppets at one time, one for each finger. Five puppets are allowed per hand.
If we are to assume that a shinobi can control all of his/her allotted puppets at once (with the exception of the Kage-permitted 12), then I think all of the above figures up to Exp. Chuunin are somewhat unrealistic. A basic Genin, controlling 4 puppets at once? Even for an Exp. Chuunin, 7 seems a tad beyond them. If you ask me, it makes a whole lot of sense to permit individuals to have this many puppets, but only be able to control that many puppets minus 2 at any one time. Resulting in:

Genin: 4 permitted, 2 controlled.
Exp. Genin: 5 permitted, 3 controlled.
Chuunin: 6 permitted, 4 controlled.
Exp. Chuunin: 7 permitted, 5 controlled.
Jounin: 8 permitted, 6 controlled.
Exp. Jounin: 10 permitted, 8 controlled.
Kage: 12 permitted, 10 controlled.

Not only does that rather nicely tie-in with how the Kage are restricted by their number of fingers, but it also makes it more realistic according to the Puppeteer's ability. I'd also like to remind people that these puppets get steadily more powerful as their master/mistress ranks up, making anyone controlling multiple B+ rank puppets quite a threat.

Just my suggestion. And just a note, I'm fairly sure the staff did not intend for Puppeteers to be able to control all of their allowed creations at once. I'm guessing they just missed putting an extra detail in to accommodate that.

~Soph out.
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Fuji
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:12 pm

Fox has an excellent point.

It does make a whole lot more sense if the allowed number of puppets owned and the allowed number of puppets used are different.

Again Fox has got it right on.
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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 4:18 pm

I'd direct you to look back at the canon use of puppets. At what could be argued to be an Exp Chuunin level a single puppet was able to put enormous pressure on Shino. Had he not had his bugs he most definitely would have died. You need to consider the fact that even the starting puppets are allowed 5 hidden weapons including a poison. They can engage the enemy at long range and unless the opponent is decent with taijutsu attack them with fairly brutal speed and precision. It is like fighting a dirty taijutsu specialist who's doused in poison and can remove his body parts but still move them at will.

Then you need to consider how overwhelming fighting 2 of those at a time could be as a genin with only C rank jutsu to work with. Since puppets are moved by their master and not by their interaction with the environment they don't need to worry about dodging mid-air or changing their movement direction on the fly. They could even intentionally fall apart to avoid damage. I'm not sure if you've ever fought a competent puppet user but unless you have some kind of specialized technique for fighting them they can be some of the hardest opponents out there with even a single puppet. All the user has to do is ensure that they keep their distance and engage their target with the puppet at every attempt to close the gap.

So 1 puppet from the start is plenty fair! :O

I see your point that having to get an SC could make things rough but keep in mind, Kankuro was praised by Sasori for his skill and yet as a jounin his max to control right now is about 4 if I remember right. Chiyo and Sasori were legends of the art and the capability to control 10 puppets at once was beyond impressive. Perhaps the default could go as follows.

Genin - 1 puppet control
Exp Genin - 2 puppet control
Chuunin - 3 puppet control
Exp Chuunin - 4 puppet control
Jounin - 5 puppet control
Exp Jounin - 6 puppet control

The last 4 levels of control could be parts of that SC mentioned where each level grants no only better speed/strength in the puppets but an addition puppet to control at each rank.

Yes this nerfs puppeteers but unless your character is designed in a way that perfectly counters kugutsu techniques 10 puppets would be devastating to fight against. Don't underestimate how powerful even a single puppet can be. It is also logical and in line with canon to make that level of control a symbol of legendary status not just any old puppeteer could achieve. It would require some level of extra dedication.

----------

On the issue of the Puppet switch in the chuunin exam that could easily by done using 1 jutsu at a time. There are a couple ways to go about it. A custom replacement technique that combines the sand bunshin technique is just one example. Another example is that one could enter into a situation where they have already used henge no jutsu to turn into the "puppet" after using a sand clone or henge technique on the real puppet. This is not using two jutsu at the same time because you are casting one and THEN casting another.


EDIT: I'll make one last argument for my case that the power of controlling 10 puppets should be something one has to put extra dedication and work towards.

Chiyo was able to lay waste to an entire army and besiege a whole castle...by herself...using 10 puppets. Please do not underestimate their combat potential because someone who understands their potential is going to come in here, get 10 puppets, and become near unbeatable. The least we can do is make it so that person has to put some work into it and earn that status of power.
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~Fox~
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 6:01 pm

KyosukeShokutei wrote:
I'd direct you to look back at the canon use of puppets. At what could be argued to be an Exp Chuunin level a single puppet was able to put enormous pressure on Shino. Had he not had his bugs he most definitely would have died. You need to consider the fact that even the starting puppets are allowed 5 hidden weapons including a poison. They can engage the enemy at long range and unless the opponent is decent with taijutsu attack them with fairly brutal speed and precision. It is like fighting a dirty taijutsu specialist who's doused in poison and can remove his body parts but still move them at will.

Then you need to consider how overwhelming fighting 2 of those at a time could be as a genin with only C rank jutsu to work with. Since puppets are moved by their master and not by their interaction with the environment they don't need to worry about dodging mid-air or changing their movement direction on the fly. They could even intentionally fall apart to avoid damage. I'm not sure if you've ever fought a competent puppet user but unless you have some kind of specialized technique for fighting them they can be some of the hardest opponents out there with even a single puppet. All the user has to do is ensure that they keep their distance and engage their target with the puppet at every attempt to close the gap.

So 1 puppet from the start is plenty fair! :O

I see your point that having to get an SC could make things rough but keep in mind, Kankuro was praised by Sasori for his skill and yet as a jounin his max to control right now is about 4 if I remember right. Chiyo and Sasori were legends of the art and the capability to control 10 puppets at once was beyond impressive. Perhaps the default could go as follows.

Genin - 1 puppet control
Exp Genin - 2 puppet control
Chuunin - 3 puppet control
Exp Chuunin - 4 puppet control
Jounin - 5 puppet control
Exp Jounin - 6 puppet control

The last 4 levels of control could be parts of that SC mentioned where each level grants no only better speed/strength in the puppets but an addition puppet to control at each rank.

Yes this nerfs puppeteers but unless your character is designed in a way that perfectly counters kugutsu techniques 10 puppets would be devastating to fight against. Don't underestimate how powerful even a single puppet can be. It is also logical and in line with canon to make that level of control a symbol of legendary status not just any old puppeteer could achieve. It would require some level of extra dedication.

----------

On the issue of the Puppet switch in the chuunin exam that could easily by done using 1 jutsu at a time. There are a couple ways to go about it. A custom replacement technique that combines the sand bunshin technique is just one example. Another example is that one could enter into a situation where they have already used henge no jutsu to turn into the "puppet" after using a sand clone or henge technique on the real puppet. This is not using two jutsu at the same time because you are casting one and THEN casting another.


EDIT: I'll make one last argument for my case that the power of controlling 10 puppets should be something one has to put extra dedication and work towards.

Chiyo was able to lay waste to an entire army and besiege a whole castle...by herself...using 10 puppets. Please do not underestimate their combat potential because someone who understands their potential is going to come in here, get 10 puppets, and become near unbeatable. The least we can do is make it so that person has to put some work into it and earn that status of power.
I cannot say that I have ever fought a puppeteer that could control more than one at a time. During the one battle I did have, I felt that my character's mobility in comparison with that of the puppet was particularly important and not something really given due credit in the canon. Until we met Sasori, no puppets looked anything like as likely to make direct contact with a target, rather serving as remote-controlled kunai launchers and strong cages. That being said, I think you raise some important points here Kyou and I agree that to some extent, these rules need both clairfication and nerfing. I don't know how close to the ideal your figures are, but in terms of power alone, they may well be preferable to what I suggested.

I'd like to mention the Kugutsu no Jutsu in the Encyclopaedia has no 'per post' cost attached. However, the rules state that this is not how puppetry will be conducted on this site. While we're at it, I believe a way around nerfing puppet allowances to Kyou's proposed levels would be to increase the 'per post' cost of Kugutsu no Jutsu for each puppet beyond the first that is being manipulated. Maybe.

Lastly, I think having an SC to improve those last few levels of puppet mastery is a good idea, for sure. We have the Medical Chief, Raiton/Katon/Doton/Suiton/Fuuton Mastery, Clan Mastery... and numerous physical-based SCs. It makes sense to have something similar for Puppetry.
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Enzo
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 11 Jul 2012, 8:08 pm

I personally hate puppetry, and pretty much for all of the reasons Kyo stated. Thus, I have a tremendous bias when I say "I love his idea of limiting them and then forcing SC's on them." Professionally speaking though, I believe I do have some grounds. For one, puppetry is the ONLY specialty to not have ANY Special Characteristics associated with it. Having something like a C-rank SC say "+1 puppet", a B-rank say "+2 puppets", and so on doesn't seem like a bad idea when you look at Ninjutsu, which has nearly an entire Special Characteristic area devoted to it. On that note, I do have to agree that, when using the Canon; Kyo also makes some very valid points. I may not be quite fond of puppetry, and you'll probably never catch me using it, but for the most part, they were very powerful in the Canon. I've never fought a puppetry user; but simply based on what I've seen in the Canon.. I don't really think I want to. Puppetry, though not an incredibly powerful specialty at the beginning, becomes a powerhouse later on. So much so; that S-rank Ninjutsu seem to pale in comparison. Think about it; it's essentially having 6 summons on the field, who are all controlled by the user, who can use chakra enhanced weapons, and who can use poisonous weapons. I don't see what's 'broken' and 'unfair' about that to be perfectly honest. And I'm only listing this from kyo's analysis. Right now an S-rank can have 10 summons on the field with those same abilities. Granted; they're not as large as summons.. But really, 11 v 1 is never a fair fight. That about sums up my point of view on this discussion.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 18 Jul 2012, 12:01 pm

I'd ask for moderation then. While fox's soroginal analysis sounds fair to enforce draconian limits on puppeteers will, of course, scare even fewer people into taking the specialty. The site has how many ACTIVE puppeteers?

Puppeteers also have the disadvantage of needing more stuff approved, more work out into apps, and more potential hangups when getting a puppet approved. A weaponry user has 1 item approved. A puppet at S rank has to have EVERY weapon and gadget and trap approved. Honestly puppetry apps can become quite large.

So as a lover of puppets, let me fight for the following:

If we are going to have have puppetry SC's, let them also make puppetry more beneficial, not just naturally limiting the number of puppets a shinobi can use (which is what the current plan is suggesting.) Make advanced chakra control open to them for example. Or create specific puppetry SC's like "And with this a shinobi can use 2 puppets of their rank instead of one."

And lastly, on the case of Kankuro.... The 4 puppets he is using could all easily be considered S rank. I figure those require a little more mental focus than simple D ranks. So rather than limit by number, we should look at limiting by rank?

Just a thought.
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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 18 Jul 2012, 4:10 pm

I'd like you to think about your statement for a moment Tyler. The one that the 4 puppets Kankuro uses would all "easily be considered S rank."

Crow: Probably his best since he's had it longest. It has 8 weapons and is considered by this sites standards to b A rank.
-Poisoned senbon/kunai launchers.
-Poison gas/smoke screen launchers.
-Hidden abdomen blade.
-Hidden Scythe blades on the torso.
-Hidden wrist blades.
-Giant poisoned spike hidden in its mouth
-Blades on most of it's joints when using the Machine Shot One technique.
-A Recording device on its eyes.

Black Ant: Probably the second lowest of his puppets. It has weaponry but only 4 and by this sites standards that would make it D rank.
-Hidden serrated blades in the arms.
-Needle launchers in the arms.
-It can open up to trap foes.
-Hidden scythes in the torso.

Salamander: It's only real use is as a shield or a barrier. Arguably the lowest "rank" puppet. By this sites standards this thing isn't even D rank.
-It can open up to trap people inside of it.

Scorpion: Last but not least we have this bad boy who has less weapons but is probably still up there with Crow in terms of power. I'd say by this sites standards while it only has enough weapons to be C their power places it at B or maybe A.
-It can shoot a volley of triangular blade with explosives on them.
-It has blade-like appendages on its back that can be used in close quarters.
-It arms can extend while still being connected(Not really a weapon but I thought worth mentioning)
-It can produce a light chakra shield
-It can release a spike attached to a thick cable or rope from its stomach that moves with presumably a high level of manipulation from the user.


-----------


All that considered I would say no good sir. Not a single one of them makes it even close to S rank.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 18 Jul 2012, 7:51 pm

You forgot something about site rules Mugen.

Those items cost a lot of different slots.

Black ant's capture pod is 3 by itself, pushing it from D to B rank.

Salamander's shield is at least A rank in construct, meaning the puppeteer really needs to be A rank to have access to such a gadget.

That needle+rope? A hose (elemental weapon, 4 slots)
Chakra shield? Chakra weapon (4 slots, can't be combined with elemental weapon, the hose that fires water that can cut stone)
The buzz saws on its back? Probably 3 slots.

So really that's above any puppet someone could build isn't it?

Crow is A rank, but fairly so.

So you have B, A, A, Forbidden. Sorry, I was off a couple ranks in my estimation.
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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 18 Jul 2012, 9:09 pm

Indeed, I scrolled past the slot amounts weapon types would give and apologize for speaking with incomplete information.

I've got some points against a few of the things you said however that isn't what this thread is about so I'll send it in PM so we can stay on topic.

I'm all for puppeteers getting a few Positive SCs instead of just limiting them. The one you mentioned for getting an extra puppet of your level doesn't seem too extreme. One could be called "Efficient Builder" that grants you two extra weapon slots on all puppets or something.

But ultimately what I want to see is some kind of administrative action taken to give regulations on the number of puppets wielded at once.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 18 Jul 2012, 9:42 pm

For a class of spec users who literally don't exist. Outside of myself and kija I don't wen know of another puppetry user. I see it as chasing potential puppetry users away.
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~Fox~
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 3:08 am

Tyler~Durden wrote:
For a class of spec users who literally don't exist. Outside of myself and kija I don't wen know of another puppetry user. I see it as chasing potential puppetry users away.
While we definitely want to avoid 'chasing prospective puppeteers away', were it to become more popular then making these suggested changes at a later date would be even more problematic.

Personally, I think that the reason there are few puppeteers is nothing to do with how much RP potential they have. In my mind, puppets are simply less aesthetically and kinetically appealing. For instance - picture a cool ninja character. If your first thought was a puppeteer, you're lying. Razz That said, I think they are particularly interesting and present a good challenge to the creatively-minded. Shame we don't see more of them!
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 6:30 am

My imagination of a cool ninja was Sasori. Once I saw his tail kick kankuro's ass I simply fell head over heels for that red headed bastard. Now if only he had an attitude more like Itachi, he would be my perfect shinobi.

Unfortunately Ezekiel is not like either of them. Lol
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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 7:33 am

Tyler~Durden wrote:
My imagination of a cool ninja was Sasori. Once I saw his tail kick kankuro's ass I simply fell head over heels for that red headed bastard. Now if only he had an attitude more like Itachi, he would be my perfect shinobi.

Unfortunately Ezekiel is not like either of them. Lol

Okay we are getting off topic here. Can a staff member kindly make a call on this please?
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 7:39 am

Why? The only staff member who has responded has admitted his own. Bias. You've admitted there are factors you had not yet read so to say you an expert who's opinion should be rule changing would also be erroneous. The only thing we've hammered out for sure is the correction of an encyclopedia technique needing a constant cost where it doesn't have one. And I already fixed that on my app by putting down a 2cp cost per turn.

And there is another factor in place that nobody has argued about as of yet, the biggest drawback to puppeteering: The one jutsu rule.

While holding chakra threads we cannot: use Genjutsu, activate any Fuuinjutsu that is not taking up space on our puppets, use a ninjutsu, use Taijutsu, properly defend ourselves with any kind of techniques or create any kind of unique offense other than "And my puppet is awesome."

We are forced into hyper specialization to the point where taking any specs other than pup/med or pup/Fuuin just seems silly.


Opinions on this reminder?
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Kiseki
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 7:41 am

First off, We will edit that so that genin can't auto use all their puppets at once and try to get a system set up. Secondly the Sc's will be taken into account by the other staff members and we will think of a solution for this and might even agree with you and make one. Lastly and perhaps the most important we will fix it so the puppetry jutsu will have a chakra cost on it. Give us a minute and get this organized. Hopefully someone from the legit staff will post here after me with an update.

As for why puppet users can't use jutsu while using puppetry, that is fine. That isn't really a draw back considering what we have seen. Puppet users that could use jutsu would be OP as hell. As the are, with good enough puppets anyone can fall to a puppet user.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 7:55 am

Anyone can fall to a Kunai. And any medic can make a poison (before that gets brought up).

Are those your goals stated Kiseki or the official stance of all staff?

And no, I'm not advocating that we puppet users should be allowed to use Jutsu, but rather stating that it limits us defensively. If you attack you know we are going to block with our puppet. It's incredibly predictable. Other shinobi have options.

I'd say if anything, go with fox's rule with an SC to upgrade.

Your max puppet available -2
Sc gives you +1 puppet to use
Nobody can use more than 10
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Mugen Kousen
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 8:34 am

Tyler~Durden wrote:
Why? The only staff member who has responded has admitted his own. Bias. You've admitted there are factors you had not yet read so to say you an expert who's opinion should be rule changing would also be erroneous. The only thing we've hammered out for sure is the correction of an encyclopedia technique needing a constant cost where it doesn't have one. And I already fixed that on my app by putting down a 2cp cost per turn.

I'm not sure where that came from. I never claimed to be an expert however I DID see a missing guideline and made this topic so it could be addressed. I recommend you calm down as this is not an attack on you or puppets but rather a reasonable guideline being set so that master over kugutsu is more true to the canon. This entire topic was on the issue of wielding 4 puppets at once as a genin and how unrealistically high of a skill level that was. Kiseki has now stated that it's going to be worked on now and so this thread is solved Tyler.

If you want to complain about other limitations on puppet users then please make your own thread to do so. Quite frankly, I got what I wanted and that is staffs attention and action towards filling in this gap on puppet guidelines.

Thank you Kiseki for making sure this was brought to the attention of the other staff.
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Lysander
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 8:52 am

A) not mad
B) Not complaining, trying to give perspective
C) My Arguments are not for my sake, but rather for puppet users now and in the future.
D) personally I hate when these topics get sequestered into the shadows of the Staff section. Takes months to get an answer, nobody knows anyone else's opinion on it, minimal player input, and it's just rather murky.
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Kiseki
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Thu 19 Jul 2012, 9:04 am

Locked to prevent useless spam.
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Cookie Monster
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PostSubject: Re: Puppetry Guidelines Wed 29 Aug 2012, 12:21 am


Solved.

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